<facsimilia> <studies> etc.

Georg Vogeler G.Vogeler at lrz.uni-muenchen.de
Mi Nov 10 18:15:14 CET 2004 

If the missing type-attribute is the only problem then I will put 
that suggestion in the proposal for the TEI (listBibl could be 
understood as a part of the divn-class, couldn't it?)

Best wishes

Georg

On 9 Nov 2004 at 20:18, Gautier Poupeau wrote:

> You are totally right. I admit not to think this problem like that
> while it's very pertinent. Effectivelly, this kind of information is
> togethered in a part (Drucke in german and Indiqué in French). For
> that, actually, I together this all informations in a <witness
> sigil="indiqué"> and you are right it's not good. Effectively, it's
> bibliographical informations, so your proposal is good for me.
> 
> The only problem is there isn't the "type" attribute in <listBibl>
> element. But, it's not a big problem, we can use "n" attribute or
> propose to TEI consortium to add this attribute. Or, maybe better, we
> can propose to TEI consortium to add an element for determinate the
> type of document we describe in the bibliographical entry or use the
> <biblScope> element with a "type" attribute. In this case, the
> <listBibl> element correspond to the "Drucke" (or Indiqué) part, and
> each entry is described with the <bibl>, <biblFull> or <biblStruct>
> element. For example : <listBibl n="Indique"> (the content of this
> attribute must be normalyzed)
>     <biblStruct>Sybel, Sickel: Kaiserurkunden in Abbildungen,
>         <biblScope>Taf. 15</biblScope>
>          <biblScope type="support">Regestum</biblScope>
>     </biblStruct>
>     <bibStructl>Böhmer - Ficker - Winkelmann
>         <biblScope> 1453</biblScope>
>         <biblScope type="support">Facsimilia</biblScope>
>     </biblStruct>
> </listBibl>
> 
> Gautier
> 
> 
> Georg Vogeler a écrit :
> 
> >Hello everybody,
> >
> >another question Gautier arised: Why specific elements for 
> ><facsimilia>, <regesta> etc.? Having the way in mind the MGH prints
> >their editions I asked myself if those bibliographic informations do
> >have any more abstract function. 
> >
> >If I remember the concept of Th. Sickel right, at first they shall
> >ease the access to other scholar ressource dealing with the charter.
> >But they are indeed part of the textual tradition given in the
> ><witList>.
> >
> >As they are usually grouped together in printed editions with some
> >starting heading ("Drucke: ...") I tend to keep them in the hierarchy
> > as an element. That's not correct from point of view of a new
> >edition as Gautier is doing at the Ecole des Chartes. But it
> >describes a concept scholarly editing has been done.
> >
> >A slightly different problem are the <studies> dealing with the
> >charter. They are a kind of bibliography given by the editor as a
> >part of his diplomatic analysis. 
> >
> >But I wouldn't mind to leave all those parts of the metadata as
> >elements encapsulating a collection of <bibl>-elements. Maybe we
> >could defuse the problem by adding a terminology for a type-attribute
> > describing the function of the single bibliographic information. We
> >would then end with the proposal Patrick Sahle made earlier and use
> >the TEI-element: <listBibl>
> >
> >	<listBibl type="facsimilia">
> >		<biblStruct>Sybel, Sickel: Kaiserurkunden in Abbildungen, 
> ><biblScope>Taf. 15</biblScope> </biblStruct>
> >	</listBibl>
> >	<listBibl type="regesta">
> >		<bibStructl>Böhmer - Ficker - Winkelmann <biblScope> 
> >1453</biblScope></biblStruct>
> >	</listBibl>
> >
> >I could live with that perfectly.
> >
> >Georg
> >
> >On 5 Nov 2004 at 22:05, Gautier Poupeau wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>I'm ok with Michael. I already say in Münnich, for me it's an error
> >>to create specific elements for the different part of a charter. So,
> >><seg> can be a solution, but there is better : <div> and we add the
> >>type of part with the attribute "type". It's the goal of the <div>
> >>element  to indicate the structure of the document. It's important,
> >>because we can edite another type of documents : letters, livre de
> >>comptes who don't have the same structure... and if we don't use
> >>generical elements to indicate the structure of our charters, we
> >>will not have to interrogate the different type of sources together
> >>and we loose the principle of interoperability, the goal of XML. For
> >>the same reason (think generic, not too specific), i think the
> >><document> element can be replaced by a <div type="document"> or
> >><div type="charters"> and for the <num> element we can use an
> >>attribute for example "n". Indeed, i think the meta-information like
> >>the number of a charter must be in an attribute and the text
> >>beetween the element must be interresting for an interrogation for a
> >>research. In the same logic, we can say <div type="text"> for
> >><tenor>. For example : <div type="document">
> >>    <div type="regestum">
> >>       regeste
> >>    </div>
> >>    <div type="text">
> >>       <div type="protocol">
> >>          <div type="invocatio">
> >>             blabla....
> >>          </div>.....
> >>       </div>
> >>       <div type="context">
> >>             .....
> >>       </div>
> >>       <div type="eschatocol">
> >>             ....
> >>       </div>
> >>    </div>
> >></div>
> >>
> >>The <elongata> element can be replaced by <hi rend="ellongata">,
> >>indeed the <hi> element "marks a word or phrase as graphically
> >>distinct from the surrounding text" (tei Guideliness). This remark
> >>don't prevent to normalyze between us the content of the "type"
> >>attribute. I don't understand good the goal of the element :
> >>facsimilia, prints, regesta, studies. Are you sure it's an element
> >>or the content of an element ? If i understant good, the goal of
> >>this elements is to indicate wich type of edition we encode. For
> >>that, we can use the <witDetail> element with the "type" attribute,
> >>for example : <witDetail
> >>type="classdocuments">facsimilia</witDetail>.
> >>
> >>Gautier Poupeau
> >>
> >>Michael Margolin a écrit :
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>1. We suggest to use TEI element <seg> inside of the element
> >>><tenor> as a generic element for any diplomatic part encoding. The
> >>>use <seg> would allow to avoid any restrictions on the hierarchy or
> >>>naming for any given class of charters. The name of the diplomatic
> >>>part shall be assigned to the "type" attribute.
> >>>
> >>>2.  We suggest  to use CID definitions of diplomatic parts for
> >>>general guidance only and to allow any other name to be used
> >>>without violating  of the <tenor> definition.
> >>>
> >>>Michael Margolin,
> >>>DEEDS Project,
> >>>University of Toronto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>From: "Georg Vogeler" <G.Vogeler at lrz.uni-muenchen.de>
> >>>To: <cei-l at lists.lrz-muenchen.de>
> >>>Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:28 AM
> >>>Subject: TEI proposal - attachment 2
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>... and the mailing list limits the size of attachments to 40 KB -
> >>>>so here is the link to the rtf-document:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.cei.lmu.de/TEI-Proposal.rtf
> >>>>
> >>>>and a pdf-Version:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.cei.lmu.de/TEI-Proposal.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>>_________________________________________________________
> >>>>Historisches Seminar
> >>>>Abteilung Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften
> >>>>Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität Muenchen
> >>>>Postadresse: Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1, D-80539 Muenchen
> >>>>Bueroadresse: Amalienstr. 52, Zi. 211
> >>>>T: ++49-89-2180 3784    F: ++49-89-21 80 2084
> >>>>e-mail: G.Vogeler at lmu.de
> >>>>http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml
> >>>>Moderator von der Virtual Library Geschichtliche
> >>>>Hilfswissenchaften (http://www.vl-ghw.lmu.de)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >Historisches Seminar
> >Abteilung Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften
> >Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität Muenchen
> >Postadresse: Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1, D-80539 Muenchen
> >Bueroadresse: Amalienstr. 52, Zi. 211
> >T: ++49-89-2180 3784    F: ++49-89-21 80 2084
> >e-mail: G.Vogeler at lmu.de
> >http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml
> >Moderator von der Virtual Library Geschichtliche Hilfswissenchaften
> >(http://www.vl-ghw.lmu.de)
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 


_________________________________________________________
Historisches Seminar
Abteilung Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität Muenchen
Postadresse: Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1, D-80539 Muenchen
Bueroadresse: Amalienstr. 52, Zi. 211
T: ++49-89-2180 3784    F: ++49-89-21 80 2084
e-mail: G.Vogeler at lmu.de
http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml
Moderator von der Virtual Library Geschichtliche Hilfswissenchaften
(http://www.vl-ghw.lmu.de)

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