February 2007 - cei-l - lists.lrz.de

[Fwd: BOUNCE cei-l@lists.lrz-muenchen.de: Non-member submission from ["Paolo Buonora" <paolo.buonora@beniculturali.it>]]
by Georg Vogeler Feb. 26, 2007

Feb. 26, 2007

This mail from Paolo Buonora wasn't delivered to the list: -------- Original-Nachricht -------- From: "Paolo Buonora" <paolo.buonora(a)beniculturali.it> To: <cei-l(a)lists.lrz-muenchen.de> Subject: Re: Experiment with CEI.dtd Dear all, as in my paper I will only discuss about techniques, I will try to say something now about this interesting debate. At the Internazional Conference "Old Archives - New Technologies", in Vienna-Göttweig, 19-21 Ottobre 2005, I tried to give a very simple definition of charter, i.e. « A long lasting document with legal value ». So, concerning the very interesting Duranti-Vogeler discussion, in the "formal" (Georg) aspects I would include durability of the material support (parchment). To me, a charter is not an abstract thing that has physical manifestations: it is an object with a physical form and a linguistic-legal content, that we can - of course - consider in an abstract way. As Patrich Sahe pointed out, this content can be the same in different copies/versions, which can be represented in a one-to-many relationship, or also may have variations, and this variations of content may also have different copies/versions, and this more complez situation can be represented in a many-to-many relationship. I will not enter in the problem of the best metadata set for charters as I am an archivist, and I am not at all expert of diplomatics, but I see no reason why the same item should not be described in a lot of different ways: the archival one, the diplomatist including the CEI initiative, Dublin Core, CIDOC, etc. Remember that the archival ISAD (G) standard "contains general rules for archival description that may be applied irrespective of the form or medium of the archival material. The rules contained in this standard do not give guidance on the description of special materials such as seals, sound recordings, or maps. Manuals setting out descriptive rules for such materials already exist. This standard should be used in conjunction with these manuals to enable appropriate description of special materials" (ISAD-G, Introduction, 1.4, available at: http://www.ica.org/biblio.php?pdocid=1) So my proposal is to link the digital object to any possible description - but to keep the description outside, externally. If we agree simply on an administrative-managing metadata framework like METS, we will be able to manage the same digital and choose any different descriptive metadata set we need. Paolo Buonora Italian State Archives ----- Original Message ----- From: "Georg Vogeler" <G.Vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de> To: <cei-l(a)lists.lrz-muenchen.de> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Experiment with CEI.dtd > Dear Gautier, > > that's pity that the DTD doesn't work - XMLSpy hadn't any problem. > > The hierarchie of the DTD is really easy: There isn't any at all. Every > element can be part of any other. > > All elements of the DTD at the moment are documented at > > http://www.cei.lmu.de/all_elements.php > > hth > > Georg > > Gautier Poupeau schrieb: >> Hello, >> >> I tried to use CEI DTD available on CEI website, but I didn't success to >> use it. I think there is a problem in DTD file. I use XML oxygen, this >> software shows available elements in a node and <text> and <charter> >> elements aren't available in <CEI> root element. Evidently, if I use this >> element, I can't validate my XML file. So I can't use it and study the >> hierarchical structure (or i don't understand). Georg, can you explain >> the structure you thought ? Or can you classify different elements you >> propose in tag library ? Thank you. >> Best wishes >> Gautier > > -- > ------------------------------------- > Dr.Georg Vogeler > Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universtitaet Muenchen > e-mail: g.vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de > Internet: http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml > > -- ------------------------------------- Dr.Georg Vogeler Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften Ludwig-Maximilians-Universtitaet Muenchen e-mail: g.vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de Internet: http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml

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Experiment with CEI.dtd
by Gautier Poupeau Feb. 26, 2007

Feb. 26, 2007

Hello, I tried to use CEI DTD available on CEI website, but I didn't success to use it. I think there is a problem in DTD file. I use XML oxygen, this software shows available elements in a node and <text> and <charter> elements aren't available in <CEI> root element. Evidently, if I use this element, I can't validate my XML file. So I can't use it and study the hierarchical structure (or i don't understand). Georg, can you explain the structure you thought ? Or can you classify different elements you propose in tag library ? Thank you. Best wishes Gautier

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[Fwd: Re: CEI-meeting Munich 3.3.2007]
by Georg Vogeler Feb. 25, 2007

Feb. 25, 2007

Dear list, I send this in behalf of Gautier Poupeau. You can find the mentioned documents at http://www.cei.lmu.de/poupeau/ Georg Gautier Poupeau wrote: Dear all, Luciana's proposals are interresting and I understand these problems. However, I find we must work step by step (if we speak about ISO standard before to know what is CEI, it's prematurate, I think, as we say in french : "il ne faut pas mettre la charrue avant les bœufs" ;-) ). So, I make you some ideas to try to work step by step. Last time in Munich, we saw we agreed about the different informations we want to encode, but we disagreed about the name of elements or the re-use of TEI. Today, I think it's a false problem or, rather, it's not the principal problem. I think the first step is to define all information we want to encode (all persons, all periods, all type of charters...), to classify them and to define tem. We must to success to agree with this list. With this list and this classification, we obtain a conceptual model to describe charters with the different problematic (archive science, edition, digitalisation, diplomatic perspectives...). This conceptual model is our reference and if we don't use the same name to our elements, it's not so a problem if each element corresponds with this model. There are different ways to classify our different informations, for example : - external information (caractères externes) : regestum, bibliography, analysis, witness list, description of witness... ; so the metadata - internal information (caractères internes) : body of charters, the different diplomatic part of charters, physical information (hands, inks, seals, lines...)...; the data We can also classify between the analysis by the scholar (regestum, different diplomatic part, place identification) and the charter itself (text, witness, physical informations)... I'm pretty sure we can classify these different informations with another system. I put in attachments of this e-mail the text of a conference I made in École normale supérieure in Lyon with linguists. In this paper, I try to propose a conceptual model to describe charters. Evidently, it's just for the idea and I'm sorry but this text is in french... I'm sure I won't have time to explain this classification for my paper in Munich (Georg already told me he will be inflexible with the time and I'm gossip ;-) ), so I think it can help us for this preliminary discussion. The second step is to see if we can agree about element names (attributes name and very important : attribute value, if we have to normalise this information). But, i'm sure that will be very complicated, because each country, each scholars, archivists, librarians... are their habits and their interpretation of a specific stuff. The third step, as Patrick said (and I thank you), is to try to have a conformance with TEI. With the last version of TEI (P5), we have a system to adapt TEI with our needs : ODD, I will explain this system in my paper and you will see we can change easily TEI and keep the conformance with guidelines. ODD may be a solution to agree all people. ODD has an another advantage. With an ODD file, we can generate a DTD, XML schema and Relax NG file, so the problem described by Patrick doesn't exist in this case. For my paper and for CEI meeting, I'm going to begin to make this work with ODD and the tag library proposed by Georg. The next steps, I think we will see if we success these first steps ;-) Best wishes Gautier Poupeau Georg Vogeler a écrit : > Dear List, > > Patrick Sahle wrote: >> Do you think, you could extract from the DTD a list of those elements >> (element names) which you feel uncomfortable with? Together with >> proposals for better names? > Luciana already did that, and I compiled it into the comments to the > online-Version of the tag-library. That's the place where I keep track > of any comment you make, and http://www.cei.lmu.de/all_elements.php > will be the handout for our meeting ... > > So just send me (or the list) your comments and we will see what > happens ... > > All the best > > Georg Vogeler > -- ------------------------------------- Dr.Georg Vogeler Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften Ludwig-Maximilians-Universtitaet Muenchen e-mail: g.vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de Internet: http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml

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CEI-meeting Munich 3.3.2007
by Georg Vogeler Feb. 20, 2007

Feb. 20, 2007

Dear colleagues, to prepare our CEI meeting I have tried to build a final list of expressions that shold build our common vocabulary in charter encoding. You can find this list at http://www.cei.lmu.de/taglib.php We can build from this list a DTD as generic as possible as I did http://www.ceil.mu.de/DTD/CEI.dtd Please send all recommendations for alteration and emendation of these two texts to the list (cei-l(a)lists.lrz-muenchen.de) At our meeting I would like to discuss this list and decide on a recommendation that could drafted as follows (emendation by native speakers strongly desired!): The CEI recommends to use for any encoding of medieval and early moden charters the folling vocabulary. The CEI agrees that there are many different ways to encode charters and many good standards to stay conform with. Thus the CEI does not consider the list a prescriptive tag list with a definite hierarchy. The vocabulary could be used as element names, as attribute names or as attribute values. If you want to encode medieval or early modern charters the CEI invites you to use a DTD build of this tag list (http://www.cei.lmu.de/taglib.php) and that would be properly for the purpose of the CEI. We consider any encoding that can be validated with this DTD as "CEI-compliant". We consider any encoding that can be mapped to this CEI using XSLT as "CEI-ready". The meeting of the CEI will have the following agenda: 1. "formalities" (Sorry, I don't know the correct english expression for "Festlegung der Tagesordnung", "Feststellung der Beschlußfähigkeit" and all these democratic formalities that are common for formal meetings - but I'm sure, our meeting won't be as formal as this agenda!) 2. developing and testing of the common vocabulary - reports 3. adopt the common vocabulary and the above proposed recommendation 4. varia I hope we can finish the meeting before lunch. I will prepare a litte bit on the topic 2 and 3 but would be happy if anybody of you could contribute too - just send me a short message. I'm happy to inform you that we have again a interpreting team for french, italien, german contributions into english. I hope that will keep the discussion lively. I would like to invite the initial CEI-group (Michele Ansani, Bernhard Assmann, Micheal Gervers, Andreas Gniffke, Andreas Kuczera, Michael Margolin, Christian-Emil Ore, Gautier Poupeau, Karsten Uhde, Anrea Rapp, Patrick Sahle) to preside the meeting together with me although all of you are invited to take part on discussions and voting. I hope you can all agree with the agenda and I'm looking forward to meet you in Munich Georg -- ------------------------------------- Dr.Georg Vogeler Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften Ludwig-Maximilians-Universtitaet Muenchen e-mail: g.vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de Internet: http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml

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Mails from [Gautier Poupeau <gautier.poupeau@enc.sorbonne.fr>]]
by Georg Vogeler Feb. 20, 2007

Feb. 20, 2007

Dear list, I fished a mail from Gautier that bounced from the list: Georg -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:17 +0100 From: Gautier Poupeau <gautier.poupeau(a)enc.sorbonne.fr> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) To: cei-l(a)lists.lrz-muenchen.de Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: CEI-meeting Munich 3.3.2007] > > Are there any further suggestions as to which other conceptual > approaches I may take into account? Maybe, you can take into account CIDOC-CRM : http://cidoc.ics.forth.gr/ . It's a conceptual model for describing cultural heritage documentation (Christiam Emile Ore could speak better than me about it). There are some ideas interresting in this model. If you look metadata, I advice you to look the new chapter for Manuscript description in TEI P5 : http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/MS.html . Best wishes Gautier -- ------------------------------------- Dr.Georg Vogeler Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtliche Hilfswissenschaften Ludwig-Maximilians-Universtitaet Muenchen e-mail: g.vogeler(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de Internet: http://www.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml

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Re: CEI-DTD
by Luciana Duranti Feb. 16, 2007

Feb. 16, 2007

Hi Georg: I cannot open it. When I try I get an error message that says: Unknown file type. Can you send it in another format? Luciana At 08:24 AM 15/02/2007, you wrote: >Dear colleagues, > >there was a typo in the adress of the DTD: > >http://www.cei.lmu.de/DTD/CEI.dtd > >is correct. > >I shouldn't write mails sitting in a train ... > >Georg > >-- >Dr. Georg Vogeler >Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtl. Hilfswiss. >Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitaet >Geschwister-Scholl-Pl. 1 - D 80539 Muenchen >http://www.geschichte.lmu.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml Dr. Luciana Duranti Chair and Professor, Archival Studies Director, InterPARES Project (www.interpares.org) School of Library, Archival and Information Studies The University of British Columbia Suite 301 - 6190 Agronomy Road Vancouver, B.C.V6T 1Z3 Canada Tel. 604/822-2587 FAX 604/822-6006 http://www.slais.ubc.ca/PEOPLE/faculty/faculty-bio/duranti-bio.htm http://www.interpares.org/ld/

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CEI-DTD
by Georg Vogeler Feb. 15, 2007

Feb. 15, 2007

Dear colleagues, there was a typo in the adress of the DTD: http://www.cei.lmu.de/DTD/CEI.dtd is correct. I shouldn't write mails sitting in a train ... Georg -- Dr. Georg Vogeler Historisches Seminar - Abt. Geschichtl. Hilfswiss. Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitaet Geschwister-Scholl-Pl. 1 - D 80539 Muenchen http://www.geschichte.lmu.de/ghw/personen_vogeler.shtml

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